(no subject)
Feb. 18th, 2008 04:04 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
badstarI think it's reasonably intelligent and decently thought-out. I behaved myself. I didn't use any profanities. I didn't hurl accusations. Most importantly, I didn't say it "burns my biscuits".
First of all, I'd like to be clear- I do not at all advocate the idea of not learning. I am also not intending to be rude or inflammatory. But I have a very hard time with broad-brushing when it comes to pagans in general.
Admittedly, I rarely use the word "pagan" to describe myself, being that it's such a general, non-descriptive word that is used as broadly at times to describe everything outside of Abrahamic religions. But let's face it, it's pretty much impossible to avoid altogether. So...I'm pagan. I resent the idea that I must have knowledge of certain subjects if I am to call myself "pagan".
1. Why is multipantheonic and traditional knowledge necessary to call oneself pagan? If one is entirely devoted to say, the Norse gods, and following Norse traditions, how are they less of a pagan if they do not have knowledge of Gaulish or Egyptian or Roman deities? How would this diminish their devotion to their deities and traditions?
I have to admit that were it not for my involvement with Cedarlight Grove, Ar nDraiocht Fein, and ADF's Dedicants Program and clergy training, my knowledge of pantheons and traditions other than Greek (and some Roman and a dab of Etruscan, mostly by simple association and interest in things Italian, being of Sicilian descent) would probably be next to nonexistent- as it is, my knowledge of other pantheons and traditions is below what I think of as basic, but I'm working on it. I know some about Aztec mythology and religion thanks to a class I took in college, and little bits of general knowledge picked up here and there. Would I be less pagan? Why?
2. Why is divination necessary to call oneself pagan? I work with Tarot. On an extremely sporadic basis. Until the last few weeks, it's had little to no appreciable impact on my religion, and even what it's had recently, I would have figured out in other ways had I just left the deck in its box. I'm learning about runes and the Greek alphabet oracle. Largely because I'm interested. Partially also because I'm required to for ADF's clergy training. At this point in the game though, if it weren't for that requirement, if I dropped them tomorrow and never picked them up again, I don't really see a huge detrimental effect on my religion taking place. But again I ask, would that make me less pagan? Why?
3. Qabala? Why would it be such a big deal that I not learn about a system that I would be prohibited from learning about in its proper context on the basis that I am not a Jewish man of forty years or older? Astrology? Its main contribution to my life is that I get a great deal of joy and amusement from reading Stella Hyde's Darkside Zodiac books.
4. Why is it so necessary to perform magic to call oneself pagan. Many Hellenics consider working magic to be impious. Are they less pagan for that?
Can one not practice a purely devotional religion to the gods of a single culture, leaving out magic and divination if one does not feel a desire or need to include them? Or is that somehow just not pagan? Why?
I have no problem with the idea that particular traditions and systems require one to have specific knowledge- it would be less than productive of them not to. And I fully support and advocate people having the opportunity to learn that which they want to learn. But to say that one should have any of this knowledge in order to apply a term so broad and nebulous as "pagan" to themselves is much like someone telling me that I have to know how to change a diaper, make a casserole and baste a hem to call myself a woman.
Now, if you have a different definition of pagan, I would be very interested to see that and consider your "necessities" in that context.
Renee
--
Renee Rhodes
Lore Master, Cedarlight Grove, Baltimore MD
Arkon Polemarkhos, ADF Hellenic Kin
The difficulty with this conversation is that it's very different from most of the ones I've had of late. Which, as I explained, have mostly been with trees.
First of all, I'd like to be clear- I do not at all advocate the idea of not learning. I am also not intending to be rude or inflammatory. But I have a very hard time with broad-brushing when it comes to pagans in general.
Admittedly, I rarely use the word "pagan" to describe myself, being that it's such a general, non-descriptive word that is used as broadly at times to describe everything outside of Abrahamic religions. But let's face it, it's pretty much impossible to avoid altogether. So...I'm pagan. I resent the idea that I must have knowledge of certain subjects if I am to call myself "pagan".
1. Why is multipantheonic and traditional knowledge necessary to call oneself pagan? If one is entirely devoted to say, the Norse gods, and following Norse traditions, how are they less of a pagan if they do not have knowledge of Gaulish or Egyptian or Roman deities? How would this diminish their devotion to their deities and traditions?
I have to admit that were it not for my involvement with Cedarlight Grove, Ar nDraiocht Fein, and ADF's Dedicants Program and clergy training, my knowledge of pantheons and traditions other than Greek (and some Roman and a dab of Etruscan, mostly by simple association and interest in things Italian, being of Sicilian descent) would probably be next to nonexistent- as it is, my knowledge of other pantheons and traditions is below what I think of as basic, but I'm working on it. I know some about Aztec mythology and religion thanks to a class I took in college, and little bits of general knowledge picked up here and there. Would I be less pagan? Why?
2. Why is divination necessary to call oneself pagan? I work with Tarot. On an extremely sporadic basis. Until the last few weeks, it's had little to no appreciable impact on my religion, and even what it's had recently, I would have figured out in other ways had I just left the deck in its box. I'm learning about runes and the Greek alphabet oracle. Largely because I'm interested. Partially also because I'm required to for ADF's clergy training. At this point in the game though, if it weren't for that requirement, if I dropped them tomorrow and never picked them up again, I don't really see a huge detrimental effect on my religion taking place. But again I ask, would that make me less pagan? Why?
3. Qabala? Why would it be such a big deal that I not learn about a system that I would be prohibited from learning about in its proper context on the basis that I am not a Jewish man of forty years or older? Astrology? Its main contribution to my life is that I get a great deal of joy and amusement from reading Stella Hyde's Darkside Zodiac books.
4. Why is it so necessary to perform magic to call oneself pagan. Many Hellenics consider working magic to be impious. Are they less pagan for that?
Can one not practice a purely devotional religion to the gods of a single culture, leaving out magic and divination if one does not feel a desire or need to include them? Or is that somehow just not pagan? Why?
I have no problem with the idea that particular traditions and systems require one to have specific knowledge- it would be less than productive of them not to. And I fully support and advocate people having the opportunity to learn that which they want to learn. But to say that one should have any of this knowledge in order to apply a term so broad and nebulous as "pagan" to themselves is much like someone telling me that I have to know how to change a diaper, make a casserole and baste a hem to call myself a woman.
Now, if you have a different definition of pagan, I would be very interested to see that and consider your "necessities" in that context.
Renee
--
Renee Rhodes
Lore Master, Cedarlight Grove, Baltimore MD
Arkon Polemarkhos, ADF Hellenic Kin
The difficulty with this conversation is that it's very different from most of the ones I've had of late. Which, as I explained, have mostly been with trees.
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no subject
Date: 2008-02-18 10:26 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-02-18 10:34 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-02-18 12:31 pm (UTC)The difficulty with this conversation is that it's very different from most of the ones I've had of late. Which, as I explained, have mostly been with trees.
is wonderful.
no subject
Date: 2008-02-18 02:46 pm (UTC)I love having conversations with trees. One of the people on my flist, a Feri trad person, posted an entry about a conversation with trees last Fall that I still enjoy reading. Part of it went like this:
I was asking about tribal values and mentioned the virtue of generosity---
I got a clear sense of the ancestor saying
**'That is no virtue..(broken)'**
--I was amazed,(Outraged)--"What do you mean? We were just talking about how *Important* it is to give!"--
**'(soothing child)'"Oh, Yes, very Important, but only half of the whole(virtue/tree), without frugality, it is no good...(branches without roots)"'**
--(me,baffled)"Wait,'virtue/tree'? What is a virtue/tree?"
***(impatient)""*Virtue/TREE*, Whole Virtue, all of it, Root and Branch---What do you *Mean* 'what is a tree?' How can you think without Trees?'""***
***************
---((That may be my favorite line from the whole conversation, "How can you think without trees?"))---
no subject
Date: 2008-02-18 03:59 pm (UTC)I wanted to post about this when you first wrote about what this person said, but I then I forgot, so I'll say it now:
Since when is Kabbalah pagan?!?! I mean sure, it's mysticism, but I hardly think that it counts as paganism, given that G-d is the basis for it. That whole line of thinking kind of really upsets me, in the way that Madonna and Britney Spears upset me when they pretend to be Jewish. Augh! But yes, you really said it best in your response, and I really appreciate that :)
no subject
Date: 2008-02-18 05:34 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-02-18 05:37 pm (UTC)Thank you :-)
Since when is Kabbalah pagan?!?! I mean sure, it's mysticism, but I hardly think that it counts as paganism, given that G-d is the basis for it.
Yeah....it irks me too. and I've had people tell me that I'm closed-minded and narrow and all kinds of things for saying that you're just not learning the same thing if you're doing the "New Age Kabalah" thing. How can it be the same thing??? Arg.
no subject
Date: 2008-02-18 06:17 pm (UTC)Thank you :-)
Since when is Kabbalah pagan?!?! I mean sure, it's mysticism, but I hardly think that it counts as paganism, given that G-d is the basis for it.
Yeah....it irks me too. and I've had people tell me that I'm closed-minded and narrow and all kinds of things for saying that you're just not learning the same thing if you're doing the "New Age Kabalah" thing. How can it be the same thing??? Arg.
no subject
Date: 2008-02-18 06:33 pm (UTC)It isn't :) You're in the right, in my opinion, but I suspect that people who practice the Madonna/Lite version of kabbalah would disagree. Alas!
no subject
Date: 2008-02-18 08:20 pm (UTC)I do divination but it is animal aurgury.
How does following only one pantheon make one less of a pagan?
I guess by that person's definition, I am not pagan? Then what would I be then? a Roman polythesist?
no subject
Date: 2008-02-18 08:58 pm (UTC)How does following only one pantheon make one less of a pagan?
To be fair, she didn't say that following one pantheon makes one less of a pagan, but that it's necessary to have knowledge of multiple traditions and pantheons to call oneself pagan.
no subject
Date: 2008-02-19 01:14 am (UTC)