Question For My Chrisitan Friends...?

[badstar]

Do not answer this question: If someone has never heard of Jesus, God, Chrisitanity, The Bible, etc....do they still go to hell for not being saved?

Okay...I'm not looking for an answer to this question.

Answer this question: Is this a valid question? If no, why not?

Just curious. Question prompted by a discussion had with someone in another community. I know that just about everyone I've talked to in the past thinks that it's a valid question to ask, no matter what they may believe the answer is. This would be the first person that I've ever talked to who's pretty much said "that isn't a valid question."

(ok, if you really want you can tell me what your thoughts on the first question are but what I'm really looking for is a yes or no to "is this a valid question?", and if you say no, then why you say so.

Comments

[morlockx.livejournal.com]

I believe they would go to limbo in classic christian teachings

[fuego.livejournal.com]

'Kaaaaay....but is it a valid question to ask?

as to the will he or won't he, I know what I believe now (Doesn't really matter what I believe though cause I'm not Christian), I know what I believed back in my "really, I'm trying to be Christian" days... (That the option to accept salvation and repent would be offered when the person died)

The one thing I REALLY can't wrap my brain around is the idea of sending an unbaptized baby to limbo. A baby.

This was the thought that caused my mom to start questioning Catholocism and eventually lead to leaving the church.

[sparkleplenty03.livejournal.com]

That question came up a great deal in our classes at our Pentecostal/Presbyterian/Methodist/Catholic churches. And no one ever really came up with a answer everyone could agree on. I remember some teachers saying there was an innate knowledge of God, even though one may not know the details, they knew of Someone out there, and because of said limited knowledge, God would give them mercy and spare them, yadda yadda. Others were convinced they'd die and go to hell just like an athiest who knew about Christianity.

[morlockx.livejournal.com]

Well officially, Limbo was where the noble pagans went, specifically those born before Christ's death.

Limbo is a bit harsh, but it could be worse in the Christian Doctrine

[fuego.livejournal.com]

it's one that could be debated forever. Thanks for that bit though!

....but the question I'm looking for people's answers on is *is that a valid question to ask"?

:-)

[nofate301.livejournal.com]

i still like my board meeting of the religions. Round table and all the gods, goddesses, deities, and entities you wish.

When you die, you go to their heaven. I'm sure the consesus is if no one believes in us. They have a small resort you get to stay at. Non-descript and just as good.

[fuego.livejournal.com]

yes...but is it a valid question to ask??????? i wasn't looking for an answer to the question itself, i just want to know if you think it's a valid question

[fuego.livejournal.com]

oh...and once again, is it a valid question to ask "what happens to this guy?"

[vees.livejournal.com]

If we had a genetic predisposition towards a "knowledge" of God, that question would be valid. But the defintion of "knowledge" is flexible, so it's difficult to answer without a threshold.

[fuego.livejournal.com]

um...wow, um...thank you. best answer so far.


I know you left the church...I even remember you telling me why, but are you Christian (if you don't mind me asking) and if so...if smeone who was not christian asked you about the guy who never heard of jesus, what would you tell them?

[sparkleplenty03.livejournal.com]

I would think so, but the latter group would probably think the opposite.

[vees.livejournal.com]

Stock answer:

That person exists because Jesus expects us to find him and minister to him. It is a failure on the part of existing Christians that he has never heard of Jesus. Mormons and similar religions believe that you may be able to save "him" after death when he's in limbo, or the departed realms, or wherever God sticks the ignorant (of him, not in general) by praying for them to be saved or baptizing them postumously.

My answer:

God appears in many forms. To think otherwise is pretentous. Leave the poor guy alone.

Response

[gaoisnurse.livejournal.com]

OK, so I do not consider myself to be much of a Christian, but my answer to the first question is No. From what I understand of Dante's Inferno and the history of the Native Americans and Conquistadors, the souls of Heathens (which I believe is the technical term for such ignorant non-believers - ignorant without a negative connotation, perhaps just 'blissfully unaware') go to neither Heaven nor Hell, but are given an opportunity to know and accept Christ during Judgment day when Christ walks through Hell on his way to Heaven. Or something like that. Until then, their souls reside in Limbo...except just last month or so the Catholic Church DID AWAY with Limbo! Wow. Hmmm. And all this assumes you believe in this version of souls, sin, Christianity, God, the afterlife, Heaven, Hell, Limbo/Purgatory, etc. In regards to you second question, Yes. Although I am unsure as to which question you refer. Are you asking whether the question about whether ignorant nonbelievers go to Hell is valid, or whether the question "Is this question valid?" is valid itself? ;-p I believe that every question is valid, however invalid any underlying assumptions might be.

Re: Response

[fuego.livejournal.com]

yeah, the question is just "is this a valid question to ask?"

by the way, Hi...have i talked to you before?

One more bit...

[gaoisnurse.livejournal.com]

Why would that question not be valid?!
What invalidates any question?!

Re: One more bit...

[fuego.livejournal.com]

good question. i don't know. can't think of anything that would, but hey...I've also had people tell me that since we don't know what heaven is truly like, it's vain and sinful to think about and speculate.

only one person has told me this, as i mentioned above but i was curious as to what others had to say.

religion is a weird thing, ya know?

whatever.

Re: Response

[gaoisnurse.livejournal.com]

I interpret that question to be self-referential. My answer is still in the affrimative.
...I am not sure if we have talked before...I was on ravenshinkery's page and wound up here...

[blaisepascal]

I feel that not only is it a valid question to ask, but it is a question that has been debated in one form or another for centuries, with different groups having different answers depending on their particular view of doctrine.

I have heard some answers I consider truely horrific (that you don't go to hell, but you also don't go to heaven, so to give you the best chance of going to heaven they must evangelize so you hear the Good Word and have an opportunity to accept Christ -- which also means that if you fail to do so, the missionary has just condemned you to hell), but I'm sure there are answers not as horrific out there too.

But then again, I'm not Christian (but, having heard of Christ, I'd be condemned to hell by the preceding parenthetical logic).

[fervid-dryfire.livejournal.com]

(I apologize in advance for not citing the Bible directly, but the verses ARE there...)

It's a very valid question to ask- but strictly metaphysically speaking, the answer is irrelevant.

...so I'll answer it anyway.

People who do not know God for reasons other than their own choice, will not go to hell. They are spared punishment because "they know not their right hand from their left."


The most significant example I can think of is how the inherent innocence of stillborn and aborted children allows them enter heaven, which is something I learned a long time ago. The mentally ill/clinically insane count in this category as well (to the best of my knowledge). God doesn't punish those unable to know and understand Him.

...which is a MAJOR difference from how he treats those UNWILLING to understand, so don't confuse that with anything else.


HOWEVER, all of that being said goes back to this: it is ultimately not our choice or even our right to "abstractly decide" on things that are God's will. Anyone reading this comment thread- by virtue of it's self-evidence- does not "need" to know whether or not this or that person OTHER THAN THEMSELVES is going to heaven; it is only within that person's heart that these things are determined- even those who "become saved" can later reject God on their deathbed (although why they'd do that I can't imagine) and indeed be sent to Hell...conversely, a person who has rejected God his entire life, but wholeheartedly repents on his deathbed, will be saved: how or why these specific outcomes should "matter" to anyone else, non-Christian or otherwise, besides basic acknowledgement of it, makes little sense to me.

[wyzzardd.livejournal.com]

It's not a valid question.

It reminds me of the question: "When did you stop beating your wife?" This question presupposes that you have a wife and that you once beat her.

The question If someone has never heard.... presupposes a belief system - that first you believe in the Bible, you believe in God, you believe that you *can* be saved, you believe in *being* saved, and you believe in Hell.

If you don't, then the question is irrelevant. In my own mind, any question that presupposes a host of shared beliefs is not a truly valid question, at least to someone who does not share the same beliefs!

[ranger-hotsauce.livejournal.com]

The only reason I could think of for the 2nd question not to be a valid one is if it is based on a faulty assumption. That is, the question assumes that one needs to have heard of Jesus to be saved. So, if I were to say that the question is invalid, it would be because I interpret "No one comes before the Father but by me," to mean not "you have to accept Jesus as your savior," but "Jesus will be the judge of who is saved, and may well choose to save people who have never heard of him." This would mean that converting to Christianity is not as important as, say, striving to know God and God's will.

[sunneyone.livejournal.com]

uhm.... no. i don't believe it is a valid question.

[fuego.livejournal.com]

ok...why do you say that?

[fuego.livejournal.com]

(I apologize in advance for not citing the Bible directly, but the verses ARE there...)

you're pretty good at backing up what you say, so i'll let it slide this once :-P

I don't really think the answer is relevant either, but I think it's safe to say that we don't think it's relevant for the same reasons

[sunneyone.livejournal.com]

because if they've never heard of god or jesus or the bible then how can they be held accountable for the fact that they're not saved?
also, i think if someone is a good person and follows the golden rule, then they shouldn't go to hell.

[fuego.livejournal.com]

you don't go to hell, but you also don't go to heaven

i think this is most horrorific when used in reference to unbaptized babies and small children. the catholic idea of limbo...that's what first prompted my mom to consider leaving the church, though she was only 8 at the time and wasn't really given a choice...she left when she was 25 or 26.

I could be wrong, but I think somewhere along the line it may have been said that babies go to heaven no matter what their baptismal status...I certainly hope so.

[fuego.livejournal.com]

i totally agree with that sentiment. it just isn't really an anser to my question. Not that I fault you for it...i'm guessing that you're thinking that it's a question that shouldn't need to be asked, right? But the need to ask is not the same as the validity of a question.

Man, i need to just go do something completely brainless. i'm getting to serious and theological..or something :-P

[sunneyone.livejournal.com]

well, wait, am i missing something? i don't think it's a valid question, because of that reason. or is it that it's not a christian based reason as to why it's not a valid question?

[fuego.livejournal.com]

ok...here's how my brain is interpreting what you're saying:

that it's a question that shouldn't *need* to be asked because if caveman dude or whatever never heard of Jesus, how can he be responsible for what he's never heard of? so it's crazy to punish him for what he doesn't know.

What I'm saying is that your reason says this more to me than it says "no it's not a valid question" maybe we're thinking two different things here...when i think a question isn't "valid" i think of a question that *shouldn't* be asked for some reason. In this case, one might say it's not a valid question because um....stretching brain here....because it's um....not in the bible and therefore its sinful to ask? yeah, that could be a reason.

do i make sense or am i smoking the really good stuff?

[sunneyone.livejournal.com]

it makes sense, but... i guess to me it's the same thing? i mean if it's not a valid question it shouldn't be asked anyway. lol.

there's nothing really, i've ever heard in christian teachings that addresses this. if an adult isn't saved, to them, he's going to hell. now for a child under the age of accountability were in this situation, then they would not go to hell. although catholics baptize their babies right away, anyway, to keep this from happening.
that's the other thing, some denominations believe that you have to ask jesus into your heart to be "saved" and others think that you are saved by how you live your life and by how much penance you do for your sins.

anyway... oh wait! it's not a valid question, because ALL christians should be out there spreading the good news. so there shouldn't be anyone that hasn't heard of christ!

[sunneyone.livejournal.com]

that's what christians are taught. to shove religion down the throats of others share the word of the lord.

[fuego.livejournal.com]

actually, i think it's more accurate to say that I don't believe the *question* is relevant. though i stillhold that it's a *valid* question

[fuego.livejournal.com]

makes good sense. but as i understand it, the most common interpretation- at least as i've always been told- is that you have to accept jesus as your savior to be saved.

but hey, if you ask me the question...is valid, but irrelevant.

[fuego.livejournal.com]

well, insted of debating this, shouldn't you be trying to tell me the good news? :-P

[sunneyone.livejournal.com]

lmfao, except i don't agree with what organized christian religion does.

[fuego.livejournal.com]

i was totally teasing

[sunneyone.livejournal.com]

oh i know. :)

[nofate301.livejournal.com]

it is and it isn't, just depends who you ask