badstar

ooh yum

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brcmapgirl.livejournal.com

Great title line! I love it!

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gotta love pinky and the brain...

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saratoga80.livejournal.com

True Christians don't care about another's religion. They don't worry about being self-righteous, because true righteousness comes not in forcing your will, but in understanding that God's will is a lot bigger than you can conceive of.

The evangelist who rejects others in God's creation forget that in their rush to have all people forgiven for their sins, they in turn cannot use damnation to force their own version of salvation. But the true Christian knows that his actions of kindness and understanding matter, and not his preaching.

-- Christian with pagan Friends, aka Rich

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Very nicely written...arg and pardon me, I think the cats are shedding blood in the bathtub...*le sigh*

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linzbinz.livejournal.com

I'm sorry people are giving you crap. I think it's sad when people don't believe in ANYTHING (not pathetic sad, just..."aww, that's too bad" sad), but I think it's great to believe in SOMETHING- to have a belief system that you identify with and understand and can be a part of. And I totally think that's what you've found, so I'm giddy for you. I wish people could just be HAPPY for you instead of upset that it's not mainstream and "right".

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The first part of your argument is not necessarily true. The Scripture states several times that we must use our talents to bring glory to God, which implicitly AND explicitly includes "recovering the sheep who have gone astray." Jesus himself told MANY parables to this effect.

As such, yes we "true Christians" do care about another's religion- yet that has little if nothing to do with self-righteousness, and a lot to do with His will.

The evangelist who rejects others in God's creation forget that in their rush to have all people forgiven for their sins, they in turn cannot use damnation to force their own version of salvation.

Granted, I agree with this- certain methods do not uphold the principle of salvation through Christ very well, but this also has little to do with the original topic. Fire and brimstone speech is not the only way people evangelize, by the way.

But the true Christian knows that his actions of kindness and understanding matter, and not his preaching.

That is most assuredly FALSE. "Sweet-talk" and "coddling" with non-believers helps nobody, because NONE OF US are saved by works alone- believer or non, the blood of Christ- and whether or not people choose to be saved by it- is the only thing that matters. If you are unwilling to witness this fact to others, your indifference will be remembered when you face your own judgment.

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delphinastar.livejournal.com

>>I've got Hagen-Daazs ice cream, would you like some? Oh, you've got Ben and Jerry's? Cool! Well, uh...here's a picnic table, wanna share?

Great Analogy!!!

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I am curious about this statement: I think it's sad when people don't believe in ANYTHING (not pathetic sad, just..."aww, that's too bad" sad), but I think it's great to believe in SOMETHING- to have a belief system that you identify with and understand and can be a part of.

I mean this as civilly as humanly possible: what's "too bad" about not believing in anything? Is there some sort of loss involved? Shedding one's beliefs seems (to me) to grant a greater peace of mind than trying to choose one out of the infinite possibilities of belief and then hold that up against all others despite all disconfirmatory evidence.

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the discussion that spawned this thought wasn't really somoene giving me crap...this thought came from something that was more a general thought on the part of the other person in the middle of discussing a more specific point.

So really, it's quite the rhetorical ponderance:

But thank you. Love you!

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heh...thanks :-)

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As such, yes we "true Christians" do care about another's religion- yet that has little if nothing to do with self-righteousness, and a lot to do with His will.

As interpreted by the human beings who read the Bible. Which is, itself, an arbitrary collection of works, written by humans, the composition of which is also decided by--you guessed it--humans. (viz. the gospel of Thomas.) Claiming to know a deity's will implies some sort of communication with said deity. Until we can prove in some uncircular manner that a) a deity exists and b) that deity communicates with humans, any statement regarding "His will" is exactly the same as self-righteousness: claiming to know what we simply don't know.

Fire and brimstone speech is not the only way people evangelize, by the way.

Sure, there's the friend who gets you to church under the pretense of social interaction, and the folks who slip Bibles in hotel rooms, and the relative who expresses sadness at the fact that you're not "going home" with them when you die, and lest we not forget, loaded or edged weapons worked remarkably well for the Romans, Spanish, French, and British.

Plainly put, evangelization is the work of Paul, not Jesus--Jesus' message was directed solely at Jews, and historically, Judaism wasn't (and isn't) a proselytizing religion. It wasn't until Paul interpreted Jesus' words that the gentile market was opened.

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personally, I think that not believing is one of the choices out of the infinite possibilities.

I tried to be atheist once. I couldn't, it didn't make sense to me.

*shrug* maybe I'm just a weak human. whatever. Tis a battle that we will go on fighting til the end of...wel, at least til the end of the forseeable future I suspect. That oughta put us well into next week.

Okay...I'm getting silly.

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...the Bible. Which is, itself, an arbitrary collection of works, written by humans, the composition of which is also decided by--you guessed it--humans.

The Bible is divinely inspired, not arbitrarily written, collected, or otherwise chosen by "mere" humans "acting alone" in their own interests; God was guiding their actions via the Holy Spirit, a real supernatural presence and part of the Holy Trinity, which lives inside each and every one of us. If you choose not to believe that, fine- but writing it off with your "practical, logical (and frankly cynical) outlook" on the subject does not at all move me or any of the others like me.

Until we can prove in some uncircular manner that a) a deity exists and b) that deity communicates with humans, any statement regarding "His will" is exactly the same as self-righteousness: claiming to know what we simply don't know.

This HAS been proven; Christ was crucified, died, was entombed, and was resurrected. Nothing and no one but God could accomplish this; it is not only proof that "a deity exists," it is proof that He exists! Everything prophesied from the Old Testament has happened too- which is more (albeit by this point, technically unnecessary) proof that He existed back then as well. From these truths- and pretty much these truths alone- everything else falls into place. It's well-documented and widely available to many peoples and laguages, and very much worth re-reading from time to time.

Sure, there's the friend who gets you to church under the pretense of social interaction, and the folks who slip Bibles in hotel rooms, and the relative who expresses sadness at the fact that you're not "going home" with them when you die, and lest we not forget, loaded or edged weapons worked remarkably well for the Romans, Spanish, French, and British.

STRAWMAN ALERT!!!! STRAWMAN ALERT!!! DEVIATE AND RE-ACQUIRE ORIGINAL COURSE OF DISCUSSION IMMEDIATELY!!!! MESSAGE ENDS

Plainly put, evangelization is the work of Paul, not Jesus--Jesus' message was directed solely at Jews, and historically, Judaism wasn't (and isn't) a proselytizing religion. It wasn't until Paul interpreted Jesus' words that the gentile market was opened.

Again...divinely inspired. Any other arguments of this nature will result in my smiling and shaking my head politely.

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So glad to see that my LJ remains an outlet for such debate and exchange of ideas

:-D

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I mean this as civilly as humanly possible: what's "too bad" about not believing in anything? Is there some sort of loss involved?

YES...and it's actually pretty simple.

Here, let's compare; if God/Heaven/Hell/the Devil/etc didn't exist and I'm wrong in believing, and YOU (or anyone else) DON'T believe in those things does it hurt me, a believer, when I die? The answer is no; nothing lost, nothing gained- we both fade to dust none the wiser, case closed.

HOWEVER, if YOU are wrong in being an unbeliever, and there IS God/Heaven/Hell/the Devil/etc out there, does it hurt you, an unbeliever, when you die? The answer is YES; you will be punished as it is written.

...and that IS too bad. As a matter of fact it's "too bad" that ANYONE has to go to Hell, whether they "intended to" or not!

Personally, in the longview I give most everyone the benefit of the doubt because earnest "deathbed repentance" happens- but ultimately, for those who never repent and accept Christ into their lives, "too bad" for them indeed.

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Because butting in is my style, and all...

For which I'm earnestly grateful--nothing keeps one honest like real opposition :)

Pascal's wager isn't an unfamiliar argument to me. The problem with it is that it presupposes one particular brand of punishment/salvation. The real root of the matter is, Christianity is but one strain of a long list of metaphysical religions, like Islam, Hinduism, theistic stripes of Buddhism, African bush religions, native American traditions, etc. (And this is not even to speak of the many differing interpretations of Christianity alone.)

Furthermore, each religion has its corpus of sacred texts which "prove" the tenets of the faith, which are all (of course) divinely inspired. So, in what way will I be dealt with as it is written? My insatiable curiosity compels me to ask: how will you test whether one is correct and the other is incorrect? Without the answer to this, the outcome to Pascal's wager becomes irrelevant--the wager itself lacks substance, and it still remains to be seen what exactly is lost.

A second question: why are you invested in the fate of other human beings? Do you feel that saving anyone will get you into Heaven? Do you feel that something is improved by that person's salvation? What, exactly, is improved?

I must admit I'm fascinated by your perspective,

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The Bible is divinely inspired, not arbitrarily written, collected, or otherwise chosen by "mere" humans "acting alone" in their own interests; God was guiding their actions via the Holy Spirit, a real supernatural presence and part of the Holy Trinity, which lives inside each and every one of us.

Two words: prove it.

And, sorry, but statements like

This HAS been proven; Christ was crucified, died, was entombed, and was resurrected.

won't get you anywhere. You're just repeating your assertion.

If you choose not to believe that, fine- but writing it off with your "practical, logical (and frankly cynical) outlook" on the subject does not at all move me or any of the others like me.

I'm not sure my intent is to get you to disbelieve. I just want you to recognize that your position is based on circular reasoning: What makes the Bible true? God says so. What proves that God said so? The Bible.

And that's only if you choose to believe that there is one Bible, instead of the mass of translations, differing manuscrupts, excerpts, redactions, and editions that it actually represents. Related to my other post, how do you determine what's divinely inspired and what's not? Why is Thomas apocryphal, yet John (a fine example of anti-Jewish polemic if I've ever seen one) canon?

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pagandenma.livejournal.com

I am, to give some background, a former Roman Catholic. Who almost became a nun. I was very Catholic, but in a much more personal than dogmatic and evangelical way.

I am now a Pagan Druid, mother of three (almost!) and a firm believer in letting each human being follow their own path. (Come to think of it, I felt that way even when I was a very pious Christian.)

The odd thing is that may people I know say I'm the most Christian Pagan they know. I take that to mean that while I'm not Catholic anymore, I still apply the concept of "love one another" and "what you do unto the least of these" very damn seriously in my life. (What we Druids would probably call the virtues of hospitality and piousness.)

I have read the Bible cover to cover in its published canonical edition, as well as having had the privilege to read many of the apocryphal books. The most important thing to remember is that yes, the Bible may HAVE been divinely inspired, back when it was written in Aramaic. But it's been translated into Hebrew, then Greek, then Latin, then English and other modern languages. All of these translations have altered the purpose, intent and message of the Bible's books, some not too pleasantly. A grand example of a mix of religion and politics (such as The King James version) that simply has failed humanity big time.

I'd love to be able to read the entire collection in the original language. I'll bet there are nuances there that would terrify modern religionists . . .

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I'd love to be able to read the entire collection in the original language. I'll bet there are nuances there that would terrify modern religionists . . .

Indeed. Biblical Hebrew is, in itself, a notoriously ambiguous language. Lots of fun :)

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Everytime Someone makes a remark about me being a druid, I always tell them "Faith in God leads a man. Religon kills them. Everyone has the right to believe or pratice as they choose as long as it harms none. And for the bible thumpers out there, they need to take a history lesson and learn how people kill and justified themselvs and said that it was in the name of god.

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I did not know that you were druid.

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I have been a solitary practitioner for about 10 years. I normally don't openly talk about it because most people don't understand.

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but...but...they sacrificed other humans!!!

:-P

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You'll have to show me that one one of these days.

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oh, come on. EVERYONE knows EVERYTHING the Druids did...

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Ok...Ok, but that doesn't happen anymore. :-)

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saratoga80.livejournal.com

"The first part of your argument is not necessarily true. The Scripture states several times that we must use our talents to bring glory to God, which implicitly AND explicitly includes "recovering the sheep who have gone astray." Jesus himself told MANY parables to this effect."

Yes, but that is generally reference to Christians who have fallen into sin. Technically, she's no longer even Christian. However, Protestant Christians consider Crucifixes and Saints to be idolatry, dependning on strictness of interpretation. So, who's the greater sinner? The former Christian who honestly leaves the religion, or those with whom one side conisders the other of an untrue faith?

"That is most assuredly FALSE. "Sweet-talk" and "coddling" with non-believers helps nobody, because NONE OF US are saved by works alone- believer or non, the blood of Christ- and whether or not people choose to be saved by it- is the only thing that matters. If you are unwilling to witness this fact to others, your indifference will be remembered when you face your own judgment."

That is an article of Faith. I can no sooner prove that you or I is saved by belief in the Blood of Christ than anyone else can prove otherwise. I am perfectly willing to speak to anyone who wishes to hear, and in this ever-changing Universe of His Will, does this not, effectively qualify?

But I will not bear witness by simply preaching conviction. There's a million people out there with convictions about Christ, the Devil, Money, Beer, whatever. We've gotten to the point where "witness" isn't enough. I believe God is ready for us to move past the need for 'leaders', and move towards the plane of accepting our responsibilities without. The arguments, the Word, the Message of Jesus stands on its own merits. It is better that we all apply it in our daily lives, then lie before God about our faith or falsely beleive in a faith merely to gain redemption. Or, as my ardent Republican dad might put it: "Better an honest Democrat than a false Republican."

As to judgement after this life is over, I will bottow a line from Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade:

Indiana: "Then we'll both die."

Guardian: "My soul is prepared. How's yours?"

-- Rich

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ooh...well, if you don't sacrifice people, I guess that's okay then..wait, don't you worship the devil?

*ducks*

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Two words: prove it.

Given the grounds of assumed disbelief you're forcing me to play on, I can't prove it any more than you can disprove it.

...your position is based on circular reasoning: What makes the Bible true? God says so. What proves that God said so? The Bible.

That's not my position at all! For one thing, places other than the Bible have recorded the same events depicted within it, Old Testament as well as New Testament; most importantly, there are many non-Biblical accounts that Jesus lived and was crucified, and that the body was never found (though the Bible does "fill in" that little mystery rather easily). Based on the "evidence" from both secular texts AND the Bible, the pieces are easy enough to put together from there.

...how do you determine what's divinely inspired and what's not? Why is Thomas apocryphal, yet John (a fine example of anti-Jewish polemic if I've ever seen one) canon?

Frankly, it varies from church to church and by denominations, etc. so I can't answer that. Good question, though.

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So, who's the greater sinner? The former Christian who honestly leaves the religion, or those with whom one side conisders the other of an untrue faith?

Oooh, oooh! That reminds me of one of my favorite Sun Tzu quotes: "The soldier who retreats 100 steps sneers at the one who retreats 500." Relate quote to argument as appropriate.

The arguments, the Word, the Message of Jesus stands on its own merits.

Well, I've got to admit that I completely agree with that- at least in regard to believers, anyway.

It is better that we all apply it in our daily lives, then lie before God about our faith or falsely beleive in a faith merely to gain redemption.

So, what- you're saying "just be a Christian, by yourself, alone, and don't bother trying to help or change anyone who's not," right? That's a slippery slope if I've ever seen one! That attitude is about as bad as indifference. You should go and read (or perhaps re-read) Matthew 25: 14-30, and get back to me when you're done. =\

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So, in what way will I be dealt with as it is written?

Weeping and gnashing of teeth. There's more but I think you get the picture.

My insatiable curiosity compels me to ask: how will you test whether one is correct and the other is incorrect?

Again, within your "curriculum of proof," I can't test this.

...why are you invested in the fate of other human beings?

Because God instructs us to, in many (and not-uncertain) terms. Man's flawed, selfish nature would compel us NOT to care about the fate of others (non-Christian or otherwise), but He has made it very clear that we must go against this nature and attempt to save others in earnest. So basically, we seem to be so "invested" because it's "not in our earthly nature" to do it.

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Har-dr-har-har-har very funny. and the answer to that is no.

I have to admit, you are siller then I thought...ans I mean that in a good way.

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I have to admit, you are siller then I thought...ans I mean that in a good way.

i am ridiculously silly. just not something that was seen after many long, stressful days of "ohmygod i got the virus that was on the news last night!"

ya know?

besides, I sometimes have to put up with the obnoxious comments myself...it was a lot worse when I lived up in Lancaster.

oh...how's the new job going?

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Given the grounds of assumed disbelief you're forcing me to play on, I can't prove it any more than you can disprove it.

I'm not forcing you to play on ground of assumed disbelief--I'm asking you to give actual evidence rather than repeating the traditional line. What's not fair is to assume your beliefs are true and then attempt to hold other people to them as well without being able to verify them. This is the hard one to swallow: faith is not a basis for truth, but only belief.

there are many non-Biblical accounts that Jesus lived and was crucified, and that the body was never found

Flavius Josephus does mention the existence of a man named Jesus, who people believed was resurrected. Please show me even a few more of the "many" non-Biblical accounts of Jesus' life, death, and resurrected which you claim exist.

Frankly, it varies from church to church and by denominations, etc. so I can't answer that. Good question, though.

Indeed, which is why it was asked. But as it's one of the central points in any argument of the truth of the resurrection, the burden rests on you to answer it. I hope you'll rise to meet the challenge.

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Weeping and gnashing of teeth. There's more but I think you get the picture.

My apologies; I meant which way (i.e., which of the innumerable metaphysical descriptions). Obviously you hold it to be Christianity. Why?

Because God instructs us to, in many (and not-uncertain) terms.

Where are God's instructions?

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I know the feeling, and in PA (a.k.a. the holier then thou puritan state) I believe it.I'm suprised that they didn't put a flaming stake in your front yard.
All in all the new job is pretty good. better pay, more respected, less ignorant idiots even though they are still stupid. But I have to admit it is a step up from AQ since this is a career orentated place where AQ was more of just a job. Don't get me wrong I do miss the place, but when the president of the company out right says "Absolute Quality is a not a career, it is a stepping stone." in a company meeting to everyone don't plan on staying to long.

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saratoga80.livejournal.com

"Oooh, oooh! That reminds me of one of my favorite Sun Tzu quotes: "The soldier who retreats 100 steps sneers at the one who retreats 500." Relate quote to argument as appropriate."

Doesn't quite apply here. In this case, Sun Tzu was not referencing a strategy, but rather a personal reflection on the nature of soldiery. After all, if the soldier who retreats 500 wins the battle and the solider who retreats only 100 is outflanked because the enemy has better position, how much is a sneer worth? I am merely referencing that I believe God values honesty more than creed.

"So, what- you're saying "just be a Christian, by yourself, alone, and don't bother trying to help or change anyone who's not," right?"

not at all, I agree that one's Christianity should be active and exemplary in its service. For example, at our Church, I have run the Stewardship committe for 3 years, ran the charity auction, and a few other items, including speaking after the Tsunami disaster to help raise $5000 for people in that area - many of whom aren't Christian.

The point in all this is that my attitude isn't lax. But I change the people around me with results - good works, yes, are testimony to my faith. If someone I know believes who did not before, then bonus, but I will not preach without a willing audience. Call it the old Eagle Scout in me: works *are* faith, they are inseparable. I know about faith alone in the Bible as clause, but my life is an example of religion in practice. But if the progenitor of this discussion never converts, and yet listens and is changed by what I say to do better things, then I say God will smile.

-- Rich

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sunneyone.livejournal.com

It's like...I've got Hagen-Daazs ice cream, would you like some? Oh, you've got Ben and Jerry's? Cool! Well, uh...here's a picnic table, wanna share?
that's a perfect analogy for how it SHOULD be.

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Obviously you hold it to be Christianity. Why?

Well gee, when you put it that simply- why not?

Hell is neither a pleasant nor difficult place to imagine. Poetically (and conservatively) speaking, it's an abyss of cold fire that burns black and oily. Surrounded by chaos and calculated suffering; full of endless screams, pain, torment, things we clap our hands to our ears and squeeze our eyes shut to hide from in this world. I wouldn't wish it on anyone myself, but the fact is that without salvation through Christ, people go there all the time for the greatest as well as the least of transgressions here on earth.

Where are God's instructions?

Duh. In the Bible; most fundamentally, the Ten Commandments- but that's just the surface. The rest of the book has plenty more.

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...be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:

For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.

But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man’s religion is vain.

Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

I wouldn't be rationalizing against the Scripture, if I were you. =\

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