Really burns my biscuits...

[badstar]

I see so very many Pagans who are surprisingly ignorant of what I consider basic parts of Paganism. I consider basic knowledge about multiple pantheons, their traditions, their deities, to be necessary for anyone who calls themselves Pagan. I also see many Pagans out there who have no knowledge of astrology, Qabala, Tarot or any other divination system. In my opinion, and in the traditions in which I am initiated, knowledge of magic is considered extremely important to one's religious path. If you can't do any magic, are you really a Pagan? Even if you specialize in theurgy rather than thaumaturgy, knowledge of magic is vitally important.

This came as part of an email from a list that I'm on. Pagan, non-Hellenic, mostly local-based. The poster is pretty well-known in the Northeast (and probably, by this point in most of the rest of the country, at least to some people)and from all that I know, she's generally considered to be well-respected. I've met her a few times, but can't say too much more to that than "she was a very nice person to chat with."

I'm trying to come up with an intelligent response to this because my gawds, it pisses me off and I have a hard time just letting stuff like this go by without batting an eyelash.

Now, please keep in mind that I do not advocate the idea of not learning.

HOWEVER! That doesn't mean that any of these particular realms of knowledge are REQUIRED to be pagan.

Can anyone tell me WHY one needs to have multi-pantheoinc and traditional knowledge to be pagan?

Can anyone tell me WHY one needs to know Qabala, astrology or tarot to be pagan?

Can anyone tell me WHY one might not truly be pagan if one doesn't practice magic?

In discussing this, chironcentaur remarked that more and more, she distances herself from the label pagan, here's just another reason why (I tend to agree. It is a rare thing tha tI call myself "pagan") When you get right down to it, though, it's nearly impossible to completely avoid the label. So...I'm pagan.

So why is it that I should try to learn about a mystical system that I could never learn in its proper context because I am not a Jewish man of forty years of age or older? (To my Jewish friends, if I'm incorrect about my understanding of that as requisite to study Qabala, please do correct me)

Why must I learn astrology? I've done well so far without it (Though if others want to study and write about it, that' fine too. I'm more than happy to laugh my ass off at Stella Hyde's Darkside Zodiac books.)

Yeah, I work with tarot. On a very sporadic basis. I can't see my life being much different if I didn't. I can't see my religion being much different if I didn't either.

Why am I required to work magic to be pagan?

If it's so important in the systems to which she is initiated, fine. The folks who work in those systems are perfectly within their rights to say that certain practices are required.

But fer crying out loud lady, who died and left you with the right to determine what is necessary to call oneself "pagan" or not? Don't try to herd us all into the same barn and tell us we all need to have the same knowledge to qualify.

Comments

[glitteringlynx.livejournal.com]

That woman is really confused, I think. I mean okay, I get that she's well respected, but she really comes across as talking half out of her ass. I really don't see how someone would need to know THAT MUCH information before being able to call themselves "Pagan."

By her own definitions, I'm sure there are a lot of people who have been Pagan/Wiccan/whatever for 40+ years who aren't Real Pagans™.

[fuego.livejournal.com]

only half out her ass? :-P

[peaceful-fox.livejournal.com]

That's the biggest load of bull I've heard in a long time, but unfortunately I have heard the same before. I am almost certain that I know this person, as I was in the pagan community in the DC/Baltimore area for a very long time.

If a person wants to absorb divination systems and other esoteric information from cultures that they are interested in, that's great. I am all for a well-rounded education.

However, Qabala means nothing to the hearth cultures which I honour, I have no interest in it, and thus I don't want to study it. End of story.

Divination systems aren't the forte of every pagan out there. Some people just aren't interested in divination nor are they good at it. Having a basic working knowledge is nice, but not everyone is meant to be a seer.

If you can't do any magic, are you really a Pagan?

Tell that to the thousands of people who have been pagans throughout the centuries who left the magic and the clergy to a few individuals. The pagan community needs clergy as well as congregants.

Not everyone is led to be clergy or do magic, but everyone can worship the deities, and what the heck is wrong with that? If I just want to have a home shrine to the deity/deities of my choice, and all I want to do is give them libations and worship them, how can you tell me that I am not a pagan?

I think that many people have a world view of paganism from just their tradition, or from Wicca, that is very limiting or that is so eclectic it dilutes everything.

[chironcentaur.livejournal.com]

Burns my biscuits? When did you turn into an eighty year old southern woman?

[peaceful-fox.livejournal.com]

That was her "inner 80 year old southern woman". :-D

[fuego.livejournal.com]

Well I did live in Texas for two years....

[unixslut.livejournal.com]

Okay... gotta comment. Gotta comment nicely.

First, if you take out the word "pagan" in her post, and substitute "Alexandrian/Gardnerian/BTW Wiccan", I would agree with it 100%. Those topics are all considered necessary for someone to be Initiated in one of the "hoity toity" British trads. I know. I insist that MY students learn at least a bit about ALL those subjects. But I certainly don't think you are required to know everything about them before you take on the label "pagan."

That said, all those topics are important, at least to know about, even if you have only rudimentary understanding. To me, at least. Let me break it down from my own point of view.

Multiple pantheons. I consider this important for anyone studying any of the "pagan" religions or systems. Had I not had an introduction to Greek deities, I would not have been able to deal with the arrival of Hecate in my life. I wanted to be one of those Celtic people, and I was gonna, darn it! The fact that Hecate kept sticking her durn nose into my business ticked me off... but at least I knew who she was. Without a basic level of knowledge of the various pantheons, how do you react when one of those deities chooses you or interacts with you in some way? Even from a Greek Recon viewpoint, it's important, because it helps you understand the basis of syncretism and what to do and NOT do. Does that make sense?

Multiple traditions. This is something that anyone in a non-Abrahamic faith should have at least a passing understanding of. The basic premise of the Public (bah) is that if you're a Wiccan, you should be able to answer my questions about Nordic rituals, even if you've no clue. I don't personally know anything much about Nordic blots, but I read up a bit, and asked a few questions, because I wanted to be able to at least point people toward good information if I was asked (and I have been asked numerous times, actually LOL).

Astrology. This and astronomy are important to most of the recon faiths, and Wiccans and neo-pagans utilize astro charts and such frequently enough. While I don't have the ability to put together a GREAT chart, I can cobble one together if I need to. I don't use astrology much, but it's handy to know the basics. If nothing else, it allows you to choose someone who is good at it, because you know enough to know when they're an idiot.

Qabbalah. (No nothing wrong with your spelling of it; I took a class on it and this is how we spelled it and it just falls more naturally from my fingers.) If you're Greek Recon, you might want to have at least a passing knowledge of this system of belief, because by 200 CE, there was a mix going on. This stuff got blended in. That's how it ended up in some versions of Hermetic magick, imo. It's also a handy world-view when you're attempting to see something from a new viewpoint. It matches the degrees of a number of occult traditions. It pervades much of the occult knowledge currently available. If you know the basics of it, you can use it or not, as you like. If you remain ignorant of it, you may miss something that might be of importance to you, later. Of course, one could say that about anything at all, but this is just one form of magic and thought that is very pervasive in the West.

Tarot/divination in general. Again, you may not want to become an expert in any form of divination, but if you are practicing any of the recon religions or Wicca, or most of the neo-pagan religions, it's expected that you'll have at least a passing knowledge of one or more of them. Tarot happens to be the one that I "took to" but I studied several different kinds of divination to see if I had a talent at any of them. I'm glad - had I not done that, I would never have learned about my talent, and wouldn't be able to give back to the community in the wonderful way in which I do. :) Do I know how to read runes? Nope... but I know what books to suggest to someone who shows promise with them.

(more in next post)

[unixslut.livejournal.com]

Knowledge of magic/k. This one could be ignored in *some* of the recon paths. However, the magic that is done nowadays is not what the Greeks considered magic. If you study Greek religion, Kemetic paths, etc, you will see that a lot of what we consider magic was, to them, a religious belief or even duty. There are thousands of spell tablets that have been found around archeaological digs in Greece, and they provide us with much information about the lives of the Greek people in those cities, and also show just how pervasive the use of curse and blessing tablets were. Once more - you need not study for years and be an expert unless you wish to, but doing an overview and reading a book on it is going to give you an idea of whether it is something you would be good at or not.

I do disagree with her comment about lack of magick making one not pagan. That implication is quite wrong. But there are reasons for learning all this stuff. When I teach, I teach people who are just beginning to learn. Sometimes they're still breaking free of old religious paths. They need a good, broad education to give them the opportunity to look at what's available and make an educated choice. I'm not necessarily talking university level here, although I do encourage students to take it that far if they can. Everyone who learns with me does an in depth study of ethics and morals, of Wicca and its various sects, of some other religion (their choice), of a variety of divination forms, astrology, astronomy, weather, general hedge and formal magick, counselling, leadership skills, meditation, etc etc etc. Is it a lot? You bet it is. But when they walk away from me (if they do), they do so knowing that they can make an informed decision about what they want their path to be... and not just take whatever shows up. :)

[fuego.livejournal.com]

I see your reasoning here, and it's all good reason to learn the subjects- I agree with that. And as I said before, I don't at all advocate the general idea of not learning. But honestly, none of this tells me why it should be necessary for any of it to call oneself pagan.

[verginiamus.livejournal.com]

As a Roman ADFer, I don't see how any of that would make me more pagan.

I am enrolled in the Grey School of Wizardry to find out how the other half lives. However, in my Magic Ethics exam, I pointed out that I don't do magic since it is impious by Roman standards - except for asking for the winner of a horse race or return of stolen property. They accepted it. (BTW. I hate the spelling of Magick.)

I think there is a confusing of definitions - pagan versus Wiccan or New Age.

[leiacat.livejournal.com]

Call me weird, but I don't see how you need to know anything at all to call yourself any religion of your choice.

You certainly would have to have some knowledge to call yourself a practicing whatever, or a well-educated whatever, or even a good whatever, but really, do you need anything except feeling you have a preference for or connection to certain deities?

[glitteringlynx.livejournal.com]

haha I was trying to be nice. :)

[caelesti.livejournal.com]

I suspect this person is Wiccan or something close to it- Wiccan/Wiccan-esque = Pagan.
It's just more evidence to me, about how useless and potentially misleading the term "pagan" is.

Multiple Pantheons/Traditions: My knowledge of different pantheons comes from my interest in mythology, which predates (but in part led to) becoming a pagan. I agree with the others that having a basic familiarity with a variety of cultures and traditions is helpful, in fact even if you're focussed on one, knowing about others can be useful for comparative purposes , insights that can be learned, techniques or simply for broad community work.

Astrology: I tend to be rather skeptical of it, despite fitting the textbook description of an Aquarius. Most pagans seem to expect you to believe in astrology. (If I hear about Mercury being in retrograde one more time...)

Tarot: I've had some tarot readings that were helpful, and I've tried to study it but find it rather complicated (so many cards!) so I'm focussing on runes and ogham, which have more to do with my religion anyway.

Kabbalah: Yes, you are correct about the requirements to study Kabbalah- traditionally- however in modern Judaism, at least Reform that is not the case. Then again, traditionally you had to be a man to study Torah...
Outside of Judaism it's more of a ceremonial magic/New Age thing that's been leaking into paganism. Ironically if I end up studying it, it'd be more out of an interest in Judaism, and in a Jewish context rather than in an occult one.

Magic: I'm most sick of the "all pagans use/believe in magic" trope. Because of what I see as its overemphasis, I've become less interested in magic, as opposed to devotional practice.