Tantrumy. Yes, I'm frustrated.

[badstar]

If you actually read this post (and I won't blame you at all if you don't), please, I beg of you, do not try to address my issue of figuring out the ADF stuff with respect to what's going on in my own brain, that's not what I'm writing about here, and for reasons you will see below, I am liable to knee-jerk and rip your head off. Nothing personal but people have really aggravated me today.

In reference to this post: http://community.livejournal.com/adf/143425.html

So recently, in my attempts to figure out why I'm waffling so much on ADF and the IP for the last year, it finally dawned on me how much my experience with getting my DP approved has bothered me. I know I bitched about it plenty. I know I've said it made me mad, but I don't think I've really realized just how much until now. There is another person on my friends list, who shall remain anonymous unless he chooses to identify himself, who has been having communications issues with the clergy training program and has been writing about it on occasion. I've followed these writings wit interest. And after knowing other people who have had issues in the higher study programs too, one of the big issues in my mind is that I pretty much know that it's going to be the DP over again and on a grander scale- since the DP was one big submission, but the IP is multiple segments submitted separately. It's a lot more writing, so a lot more potential for repeat performances.

Finally, last night I got it in my head to make a post to adf. Now...I think I did a reasonable job of being very clear that I did not expect the impossible and that I understand that this is all volunteer-based. I also think I did a decent enough job of making it perfectly clear that The issue that I was posting about was the *only* question that I could not answer for myself.

So I express concern about such points as:

Having submitted my work already approved, but when it got re-reviewed (which to my understanding was just to be a once-over to make sure that everything was okay since I was the first DP for Caryn to review), the reviewer (Whose name I don't know and after this debacle, don't expect I ever will) had questions about my work but didn't bother to ask me- who wrote it all in the first place- or Caryn- who okayed it but took it to Raven Mann who also didn't bother to ask me or Caryn, but took it to the clergy council- well, took the questions, but not the actual work being questioned.)

Once I submitted my DP for review yet again for the CTP, I was asked to do some additional work on three essays, but no specifics given, basically just "add to this kthxbye". On the first two, I guess I got lucky, they were accepted without question on re-submission. The third, however, came back to me three times. The first two times, no specifics were given and it was weeks between sending them off and hearing back, never even got a "Received your essay, will review it as soon as possible" notice. Finally, on the third try, I was told what was wanted.

Now, for running on volunteer power, you'd think people would want to be as efficient as possible right? I mean, wouldn't it make sense to have added the one additional sentence to the first request for additional work on the essay so I could get right to the point to begin with? There would be a couple of times that they wouldn't have had to reread the essay, a couple of times that they wouldn't have had to think about it, a coupe of times where they wouldn't have to email it back to me. But no, they wasted their time and mine, and at the time, because of this one essay and the crappy communication, I was ready to give up. If I wasn't accepted wen I was, that would have been it.

I don't want to go through this again. I know someone working on the CTP who would submit her work and not hear anything for months, and get no reply when she emailed asking for a status update. I know someone working on it who gets his work rejected with no explaination why when it is comparable to other work that was accepted. I don't want to be in this spot.

So I made the post linked above, and the reaction is to blast me over the volunteer issue, to lecture me about how people have their own lives and how they can only do so much. Bitch, please. I don't expect a volunteer to work miracles. I expect that if I'm doing a study program and someone has volunteered to review my work that they will at the very least acknowledge when they receive it and let me know that they will be getting to it. I expect that if something happens to delay things, that they will have the courtesy to let me know. A two-sentence email "Hey, I was going to sit down with this last night but my kid got sick, I'll need a few more days" takes roughly thirty seconds to write (at least as I type) and lets me know that they're not ignoring me. Hey, if something comes up, I understand, but where my work is concerned, I expect to be kept in the loop.

This is not unreasonable. This isn't brain surgery, people. Hell, it isn't even rocket science.

Then there were several people who asked me what it was that I wanted out of ADF anyway. This was completely beside the point. I don't need help figuring that out. I mentioned my questioning of what I'm doing to give an idea of why I was posing what I did.

Another individual...and this one really pissed me off, came back with "Oh, maybe you just had a bad personal experience" and proceeded to tell me about her own experience and how she had to wait, but hew reviewer actually bothered to COMMUNICATE with her and ASK her the questions that they had oh my god someone was doing their fucking job, even if it was a little slow. Well golly geee yee fucking ha it must be nice! Oh, and it was a learning experience for you, it made you think. Well then I guess you're just a better dedicant than me. Here, please have a fucking cookie, would you prefer snickerdoodle or chocolate fucking chip?

Another person accused me of being antagonistic. Listen, if you have a better way to describe my experience and express concern about how many other people are having similar experiences and about the possibility of going through it all again than please...do feel free to rewrite my post with sunshine and butterflies and send it to me so I can repost it to your liking. Because I can't think of a better way to say what I had to say. I was very clear that I understand that people have lives to deal with and all that. I was very clear as to what my concerns are. I was very calm and civil and I even went back and edited myself several times to make sure that I wasn't sounding like I intended to rip people up for this.

I thank the people who actually had constructive and understanding things to say, or who will when they're able to respond. It's good to know that some people are actually bothering to read what I've said and respond to that, not what they've imagined it to be in their little brains.

Comments

[chironcentaur.livejournal.com]

I do remember how angry you were when the DP bullshit was going on, I don't see you get like that very often so it tends to stick in the mind. No, you probably don't want to do that again.

Like I said on the entry itself, if you don't have the time and energy to devote to something then you shouldn't be volunteering. Volunteering doesn't mean doing whatever the fuck you want whenever you want, it is still a job, a responsibility that people are depending on you to do. Its not fair to those people to have you not taking it seriously (and yeah, asking someone to rewrite an essay without telling them why, telling them what you are looking for, that screams lazy to me) or not willing to recognize when you have over extended yourself.

I don't agree that having a whole bunch of volunteers doing a half assed job is somehow preferable to a few qualified ones (or none at all). And either way, there will always be more work than there are volunteers for it, that's just the reality everywhere. Best to recognize that reality and try to find some way to work within those limits instead of sitting around hoping those will somehow change.

[dubhlainn.livejournal.com]

People have been saying it so long "but, but, but... everyone is just a volunteer" that it has soaked into our collective conciousness.

If there is any one phrase that pissed me off more it is that one.

I actually do not think that the people reviewing work are being lazy, the problem is that there are too few people volunteering for too many jobs and they are dropping the ball on most of them.

If one is a reviewer, the cheif of a guild, an officer of a kin, working on bylaws, attempting to create new Study Programs, and run a local Grove that is just too fucking much! I mean it is common sense right? Seems that way to me anyways.

Sorry ... I am frustrated as well.

[fuego.livejournal.com]

People have been saying it so long "but, but, but... everyone is just a volunteer" that it has soaked into our collective conciousness.

But that's also the key phrase...everyone is a volunteer, which means they're doing it voluntarily. I don't see guns being held to people's heads forcing them to review DPs and stuff.

So clearly, they wanted to do this.

Sorry ... I am frustrated as well.

I'm right there with ya. A bit more removed perhaps since you're in the middle of it, but I know how you feel. Nothing to apologize for.

[chironcentaur.livejournal.com]

No need to apologize to me, you've earned the right to be frustrated.

I also think people have the wrong outlook on volunteer work as well. Its still a fucking job just because you don't get paid for it, you still have a responsibility to get things done on time, not whenever you feel like it. You wouldn't apply for a wage job if you didn't think you had the time to devote to it, you shouldn't do it for volunteer work either. And just like you'd get fired for acting like this at a job, we should suspend our understanding up to a point and be willing to say, for whatever the reason it doesn't seem like you can do this, time to let it go.

You've had the experience, so if you don't think its laziness okay. I do have to wonder about someone that doesn't bother explaining what exactly needs to be revised in an essay. That strikes me as common sense, and if it doesn't occur to someone that they need to do that, I don't know that you should be reviewing people's work.

[heathenry.livejournal.com]

My main reason for the past year in wanting to get through the DP was ONLY to transfer to AODA. Off and on, I have thought about simply putting the energy I would put into the DP into crafting a personalized tradition of neopaganism that would be right for me, and would be the Pagan Tradition I would invent had I ever gotten the chance to.

Now that I hear about what a headache it is to even get the DP approved, and the higher study programs, I wont bother to renew my dues, and will spend my time writing and performing my own rituals and prayers.

[fuego.livejournal.com]

My main reason for the past year in wanting to get through the DP was ONLY to transfer to AODA.

What is the correlation?

Now that I hear about what a headache it is to even get the DP approved, and the higher study programs, I wont bother to renew my dues, and will spend my time writing and performing my own rituals and prayers.

There are always stories to the contrary too. Not everyone has the same issues, but hey, I don't blame you for not wanting to deal with it.

[heathenry.livejournal.com]

AODA awards credit for the first circle automatically if you have the DP from ADF.

I thought JMG's "The Druidry Handbook" was a very positive work and it attracted me to Revival Druidry.

[fuego.livejournal.com]

Ah, ok.

Is there a particular advantage to doing the DP first and transferring instead of doing their first circle?

[heathenry.livejournal.com]

The advantage, for me, was that I had 2/3 of the DP done. The idea of a clean break, and putting my DP material in the recycler is appealing to me. I waffle between the two.

After so many years of hard polytheism and reconstructionist sympathies, I started to find works like Cunninghams guide for the solitary practitioner, and JMGs works very appealing. It was weird.

[die-uberfrau.livejournal.com]

*hugs* Well, shit.

[fuego.livejournal.com]

*hugs* thanks

[nicanthiel.livejournal.com]

I saw that post, and the replies, and I fully understand why you're pissed off. I can't really say much because I haven't yet started my DP stuff, but the general attitude about the bureaucracy was another of the Big Reasons I was so against reupping my membership (the main one being the policy on Outsiders) until Nerthus told me to look into clergy programs

[fuego.livejournal.com]

for what it's worth, there are people having better experiences than me. I've heard that, at this point, things are going more smoothly with the DP at least and hey...by the time you get to it, maybe it'll be going more smoothly for the CTP.

[chironcentaur.livejournal.com]

Ah, you got problems with the Outsiders, too, huh? Groves that just count it as anything that might not click with the purpose of the ritual, and everyone is nice and respectful, I can get behind that. Its when you start attaching specific names, and thinking you can be rude, or even more ridiculous threatening (!!!), that I have problems and choose to be no where near you for my own personal safety.

Yeah, beside the point here. Just nice to see others have the same issues, it can feel so lonely over there on the lists.

[http://users.livejournal.com/west_/]

Goes to show that if they're interested, they'll fast-track your DP just fine. Funny how that works. the anecdotes indicate a two-tiered system.

Communications problems? When was the last time *anyone* in the general public (i.e. broader public community) heard a peep from Skip? he keeps to the reclusion of the leadership lists, at best.

In general, my experience is that of a highly unprofessional organization, very personality based/cliquish. As far as the study programs, *most* of the guilds are completely non-functioning. Bardic seems to be the exception, but there is NO naturalists guild, warriors, producers, scholars to speak of, as measured by folks having spent a few years with ADF and completing those programs.

You can be a member for over a decade, and see zero completions in those programs, not one '3rd circle' person. ...speaks volumes.

[verginiamus.livejournal.com]

I got fast tracked - one week turn around. However, I am not in the inner circle having pissed off a number of people. But I am amazed at the status quo being we are just volunteers. Sigh, LISTEN UP - RESPOND OR LOSE PEOPLE. Yes, West I know you have the "number of days without an Archdruid sighting" up - I agree. We need to have more active leadership or more responsible ones.

[erl-queen.livejournal.com]

That would frustrate the hell out of me. One of the many reasons I no longer closely affiliate with any group. I just can't stand how so many people are so flaky, who volunteer and then can't manage to live up to their commitments (yes, it's a commitment, even if it's a voluntary one - hey, work is voluntary too, but once you accept the job you need to show up).

I do hope this either gets sorted out satisfactorily or you find a way to get what you need from somewhere else. *hugs*

[darkfiremoon.livejournal.com]

my take on the whole training program in ADF is that it neither teaches you Druidry, leadership or anything else I find really important. My training in Wicca was much more complete. After a year of no words from Skip I gave up. It isn't that important to me. I remember what you went through and I found it to be utter crap. I believe ADF suffers from the same issues as every other group/religious entity. One of those issues is popular vote. If your views do not mesh they will be rejected. You are strong, outspoken and have different views than many in ADF. You are strong enough to stand by that and that is a challenge to ADF. (West said it better Cliquish)

In ADF's defense they are 'teaching' their brand of Religion either you get it or you don't. And it's ok if you don't. I'd applaud them for standing their own ground if I didn't feel it was run by old people. Old people meaning those who think they know it all, found it all, researched it all. Thinking their way is best, unable to change or bend with the times and people. Religions must evolve because people do. (Again West with the neatness of words, where I just babble)

You don't need another this or that behind your name to prove you are anything. For me that's what it would be dunno about you. You are valid and wonderfully intelligent, well versed and complete without it.



Much Love,

Anna