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badstarStudents nailing names of non-Christians to a cross. Students were nailing names to the cross as part of a high school See You At The Flag Pole thing. There is no information in the article about the exact nature of the act.
You know, there's a point where we're no longer talking about the freedom to express one's religion. This is...well, I don't have words. Hanging someone on a cross was a method of execution. Were they going for the symbolic execution angle? WHY would people do this? Oh yeah..because if you're not Christian, you're a satanist, you're going to hell, you're evil, you're horrible, you've rejected the "good news", you're not "saved".
I'm gonna be honest here...the term "saved" bugs me. Yes, it bugs me. And it's bothered me a whole lot ever since the day after Alex died. I went to school the day after she died, and I came home in the afternoon. Shortly after I walked in the door, I got a phone call. A friend of mine and Alex's, who was then attending a different school, found out that she had died and called me to talk a bit. A lot of us were doing a lot of talking, so it was nothing different. But Scott had something very particular in mind that he wanted to know. And his exact words burned themselves into my brain. He said "Renee, there's something I've wndered about for a long time and I've never been able to think of a good way or time to ask this, but now that she died I have to know and you would be the one to know the answer to this...was Alex saved? I need to know because she's gone to hell if she wasn't and I can't bear the thought of that."
Somewhat shocking, I don't remember how I responded. Alex didn't belong to a church, I don't think she was "saved". She was interested in spirituality and religion, but not just Christianity. Actually, she was very interested in Native American spirituality. Whatever, my train of thought just veered onto a sidetrack. And I'm reasonably sure Alex isn't burning in hell.
Saved. From what? Yes, I know from an eternity of damnation. I accepted long ago that I'm gonna burn in Hell...at east according to the tennets of the Christian faith. But hey, we all know how much I like fire, so that could be fun...
All jokes aside, I just dont know what to say. I don't know how to respond to a religion that says "This is the only valid way. If you don't go this way, you're just..wrong and that's all there is to it." Someone once said to me "Everyone's a Christian, they just havent found the church where they belong."
I beg to differ.
Honestly, I don't think anyone has it quite right. Including me. There's only one way to find out, ya know? But whatever the consequences are...do I believe that we're all gonna be tortured for eternity? NO. I really don't. And no, I don't take Jesus as my Lord and Savior.
You know, I'm not sure what my point here is anymore. But it really bothers me that peope do things like this. And this was done at a school. Yes, I know it wasn't school-sponsored. I don't care. It's not the school I'm having issues with here.
And so many Christians talk about being persecuted and not being allowed to express their faith in the public square.
Were I a lesser person, I'd call for Pagans to nail the names of those Christians to a wooden pentagram.
Note: Yes, a number of y'all who will read this are Christians. If you respond...well, do so as you see fit. This rant has been brought to you by a Disgruntled Fuego
And per the usual, there's no registration to read the article.
You know, there's a point where we're no longer talking about the freedom to express one's religion. This is...well, I don't have words. Hanging someone on a cross was a method of execution. Were they going for the symbolic execution angle? WHY would people do this? Oh yeah..because if you're not Christian, you're a satanist, you're going to hell, you're evil, you're horrible, you've rejected the "good news", you're not "saved".
I'm gonna be honest here...the term "saved" bugs me. Yes, it bugs me. And it's bothered me a whole lot ever since the day after Alex died. I went to school the day after she died, and I came home in the afternoon. Shortly after I walked in the door, I got a phone call. A friend of mine and Alex's, who was then attending a different school, found out that she had died and called me to talk a bit. A lot of us were doing a lot of talking, so it was nothing different. But Scott had something very particular in mind that he wanted to know. And his exact words burned themselves into my brain. He said "Renee, there's something I've wndered about for a long time and I've never been able to think of a good way or time to ask this, but now that she died I have to know and you would be the one to know the answer to this...was Alex saved? I need to know because she's gone to hell if she wasn't and I can't bear the thought of that."
Somewhat shocking, I don't remember how I responded. Alex didn't belong to a church, I don't think she was "saved". She was interested in spirituality and religion, but not just Christianity. Actually, she was very interested in Native American spirituality. Whatever, my train of thought just veered onto a sidetrack. And I'm reasonably sure Alex isn't burning in hell.
Saved. From what? Yes, I know from an eternity of damnation. I accepted long ago that I'm gonna burn in Hell...at east according to the tennets of the Christian faith. But hey, we all know how much I like fire, so that could be fun...
All jokes aside, I just dont know what to say. I don't know how to respond to a religion that says "This is the only valid way. If you don't go this way, you're just..wrong and that's all there is to it." Someone once said to me "Everyone's a Christian, they just havent found the church where they belong."
I beg to differ.
Honestly, I don't think anyone has it quite right. Including me. There's only one way to find out, ya know? But whatever the consequences are...do I believe that we're all gonna be tortured for eternity? NO. I really don't. And no, I don't take Jesus as my Lord and Savior.
You know, I'm not sure what my point here is anymore. But it really bothers me that peope do things like this. And this was done at a school. Yes, I know it wasn't school-sponsored. I don't care. It's not the school I'm having issues with here.
And so many Christians talk about being persecuted and not being allowed to express their faith in the public square.
Were I a lesser person, I'd call for Pagans to nail the names of those Christians to a wooden pentagram.
Note: Yes, a number of y'all who will read this are Christians. If you respond...well, do so as you see fit. This rant has been brought to you by a Disgruntled Fuego
And per the usual, there's no registration to read the article.
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no subject
Date: 2005-09-30 04:05 am (UTC)Most of us are going to Hell. See you there :-)
no subject
Date: 2005-09-30 04:20 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-09-30 04:51 am (UTC)i was raised christian, but i've always seen christianity as being an open, accepting thing. i don't see god as a fire and brimstone punisher. i see him as a loving person.
and doing things like this "see you at the pole" bastardizes the message of god and turns people off. it creates this "us against them" kind of atomosphere and is there reason people start holy wars.
no subject
Date: 2005-09-30 12:42 pm (UTC)Were I a lesser person, I'd call for Pagans to nail the names of those Christians to a wooden pentagram.
If that ever happened, I can assure you that I (and many Christians like me) wouldn't care.
Judging people of religion A based on religion B's standards is as logical as comparing apples to oranges: the apple cares not a whit that it's not the same as the orange, and vice-versa*. Not anything worth feuding over, for sure.
So, what does it matter to you? At the very least it's free speech, isn't it?
After all- unless you have serious doubts about your own beliefs and think that the views of Christians have any weight to them, none of this should have an effect on you anyway, right?
*not to mention the whole Islamo-fascists vs. the rest of the world issue...
no subject
Date: 2005-09-30 08:01 pm (UTC)youre entitled to your disgruntlement. but you know we're not all like that!!
Date: 2005-09-30 11:23 pm (UTC)well, as a former athiest, i find that statement offensive and wrong. i have friends who agree with the statement above, and believe that *everyone* really believes in god and is just in denial or angry or bitter or something. and i've had to argue with them. i was athiest for a *long* time. that means I DID NOT BELIEVE IN GOD. period. no anger. no 'church finding'. just athiest.
i have the same problem with that 'saved' term. 'i'm saved, youre not, so there.' seems horribly pretensious. disrespectful. arrogant. holier-than-thou. i cannot *possibly* know the will of God (unless He decides to clobber me over the head with a very obvious clue). how could anyone claim to understand the workings of something so far beyond them?!?! i'm just glad He's allowed me to have joy in my life up to this point. if the road gets harder for me later on, so be it. doesnt mean God is punishing me, or that God doesnt like me anymore. i cant possibly know what it would mean. so i'll just continue the journey, hope for the best, and know that He knows more than me and He is fully capable of taking care of the things that i dont understand.
just my 2 cents. i love you, hon!!
no subject
Date: 2005-09-30 11:26 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-09-30 11:28 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-09-30 11:35 pm (UTC)its a little intimidating to *name* people in the local community and write a list. why were they keeping track?? whose business is it, anyway, what those other students believe?
no subject
Date: 2005-10-01 03:43 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-10-01 02:00 pm (UTC)It still shouldn't matter to you at all- unless you think, in any small or larege way, that voodoo is real. Of course by then you've basically brought it upon yourself. =\
Re: youre entitled to your disgruntlement. but you know we're not all like that!!
Date: 2005-10-01 02:11 pm (UTC)Yeah, that's basically arrogance- and also more than a tad of ignorance. I was reading through Romans a couple nights ago and found a little reminder- somewhere in chapter 9, I think.
(Oh, I went and looked it up):
9:20-21Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Saved or not- it's a choice we can make, but it's ultimately God's call. That's why I believe that "once saved, always saved" is completely false, and the only reason a person would believe that is so he can convince himself that he can "get away with" doing the very things you speak of like lording his saved status over others, etc. Personally I think that as soon as someone actually uses being saved for that kind of action, his saved status should be revoked.
...but again, it's God's call at the last. =P
no subject
Date: 2005-10-01 06:56 pm (UTC)http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_syatp.htm
Ok... had to do a little more research on this one, but now I understand what is going on. There is a movement to make sure that Christian kids can get together to express their religion. I have no problem with that.
In most of these events, they are writing out prayers and attaching them to a flagpole in the hopes of being "heard." No terribly aggregious, but starts to violate separation of church and state -- along with the fact that these events are held on the grounds of public schools.
The event in Cushing, which Fuego's link references, went one step further. They were/are attempting to pray for the pagan that, in their minds, are "lost" or in need of help. Not a bad intention. Just a bad execution.
Putting names upon a cross, as they allegedly have done, is a decidedly un-christian thing to do and only continues to fuel my personal disgust with that particular faith. In Roman times, Christians were crucified because they were considered enemies of the state -- a state that WAS the religion. The children who performed these "crucifixions" had no idea what they were doing because those that have taugh them are ignorant of even their own history. It's like the blind leading the blind...
As far as being "saved", I stopped talking to a woman in Tennessee because, for as much as she accepted me, she could not accept that I wasn't "saved." This became a central part of our "relationship" -- I could accept that she was, but she could not accept that I was going to go to "hell."
*sigh* once again, a demonstration of ignorance under the guise of "we're only trying to help."
no subject
Date: 2005-10-01 07:04 pm (UTC)A lot of things were put in this Universe that we don't understand. Just because you don't accept that Voodoo is real doesn't make it any less real. Ignorance is not strength.
no subject
Date: 2005-10-01 09:08 pm (UTC)19...whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."
the physical things that we do on earth have spiritual ramifications, whether or not we understand them, whether or not we believe in them. thats why, when i had an opportunity to fire spin at a pagan ritual, i declined. its not a spirituality that i agree with, and i didnt want to be involved, because there would be spiritual consequences for me. it would be like asking a non-christian to get baptised or take communion.
aside from all that, even assuming voodoo is totally harmless on a spiritual level, i'd still rather not have my name or likeness used in things that i dont agree with. for example, i occassionally post pictures online. its entirely possible that someone could take my pictures, photoshop things here, change things there, cut, paste, and add me to a porn site. no spiritual ramifications for me necessarily. but even if NO ONE else saw the pictures, i'd still be rather upset.
:-) just my thoughts on the matter
no subject
Date: 2005-10-01 09:36 pm (UTC)lol, i had a roomate who thought like that. worse, even. if she couldnt *see* it, it didnt exist. strangely enough she called herself a 'christian'. huh, wonder how that works, seeing as how (as far as i know) none of us has really seen jesus. i had a lot of interesting conversations with her, most of which involved me calling her on her ignorance, and her ignoring me and playing the 'i cant hear you, therefor you dont exist' game. man, i loved that game. it was my favorite.
have i told this story before? fuego, i know you know it :-) anyway, she was under the impression that pagans dont exist, because she'd never personally met one. i offered to introduce her to a few. (one of my best friends was president of the pagan student union at the time.) at which point she'd turn around, pretend to be really engrossed in a book, and wait for me to go away. lovely creature, she was. and so very mature in her handling of different viewpoints. gaw.
no subject
Date: 2005-10-01 09:37 pm (UTC)Is there a point?
Date: 2005-10-03 12:06 pm (UTC)No.
A lot of things were put in this Universe that we don't understand.
Interesting use of passive tense. You think then that voodoo simply "was put in this Universe," and not made-up by a special interest group of people? I don't know; I know little of the history of voodoo beyond the details in wikipedia, but I'm skeptical of all supernatural things anyway.
Just because you don't accept that Voodoo is real doesn't make it any less real.
...and so what, then- believing in it makes it more real? Or makes something out of nothing? As far as I'm concerned, it's never been real- no matter how many other people believe in it.
Ignorance is not strength.
What does ignorance or strength have to do with any of this? Please tell me.
no subject
Date: 2005-10-03 12:18 pm (UTC)However, why would you hold yourself responsible for what other people do (or might do) to you? It seems to me that you'd think it would somehow be your fault if someone else used your name/likeness/etc. for wrongful purposes. In cases where you're clearly not a willing participant, why would you hold it against yourself when it's about something else someone did TO you?
Re: Is there a point?
Date: 2005-10-03 05:53 pm (UTC)What about God?
Re: Is there a point?
Date: 2005-10-04 06:47 am (UTC)If I had to make a distinction though, I'd describe Him as omni-natural.
Re: Is there a point?
Date: 2005-10-04 03:48 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-10-04 08:58 pm (UTC)Re: Is there a point?
Date: 2005-10-04 09:30 pm (UTC)dcnblus is *not* saying that ,' as you seem to think. (dcnblus, correct me if i'm wrong about all that.)
Re: Is there a point?
Date: 2005-10-04 09:35 pm (UTC)Re: Is there a point?
Date: 2005-10-05 01:44 pm (UTC)Re: Is there a point?
Date: 2005-10-05 01:55 pm (UTC)That's basically what I was trying to say from the very beginning: the reality of voodoo is that it has nothing at its foundation- therefore it will remain an empty bunch of nothing no matter who does or does not believe in it. =)
no subject
Date: 2005-10-05 02:03 pm (UTC)On the other hand, say you respond to being violated in that way by intentionally partaking in an act of that nature- say, in response to "getting a hex" or something, you perform some voodoo remedy ritual- then you break commandments one and two and there you have it. Not your fault until and unless you "buy into" it. =|
no subject
Date: 2005-10-05 05:15 pm (UTC)Whether something has spiritual ramifications or not because you don't take part in that belief...i may be misinterpreting, but I don't think Becca *necessarily* is referring to that (correct me if I'm wrong hon)
I think she's talking more about a feeling of emotional violation, which I can totally understand. I see two valid points of view here...yours and hers. Hers makes more sense to me from a personal perspective, but I can understand yours too.
Andy, You're saying that if someone does somethign with your name/likeness whatever where you did not consent, possibly have no clue that it happened and don't believe in the motivation of the act. It has not affected you in any way because it's caused you no personal damage, physically, mentally, financially...whatever, therefore it has not harmed you and you could care less. You're able to keep yourself detatched.
Becca, you're saying that if something has been done with your name, likeness and you didn't consent but you find out about it, you feel that you've been violated whether any damages come of it or not because it was something that you did not consent to. You feel attached to the situation against your will, correcto?
I'm not going to stop this discussion. It's interesting. And I like to provoke :-P
But I say this.
I see two different points of view here. For whatever it's worth or not, my personal feelings lean more towards Becca's thoughts. But I completely acknowledge that Andy's side is just as valid and it makes sense to me intellectually. What differs here is whether someone is willing or able to detatch themself from the use of their name or likeness for non-consensual whatever.
So...carry on as you will. Just fight nice :-)
no subject
Date: 2005-10-05 05:32 pm (UTC)The nature of your perspective makes sense: most girls are like that anyway.
It has not affected you in any way because it's caused you no personal damage, physically, mentally, financially...You're able to keep yourself detatched.
Yeah, that's basically what I'm saying.
I see two different points of view here. For whatever it's worth or not, my personal feelings lean more towards Becca's thoughts.
Yeah, yeah...I knew you were biased the second you called the other party "hon" and didn't have any endearing term for me! >;-T
no subject
Date: 2005-10-05 05:47 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-10-05 06:24 pm (UTC)how did those kids get that list of names?!?!?! its *degrading* to be singled out and labeled like that. like having a scarlet letter tattooed to your face. having your name publicly *nailed* like that?!? just frightening. in my mind, thats a threatening action. like cross burning. its horrible that a symbol of Jesus, the Prince of Peace Himself, came to be used in such a violent way.
no subject
Date: 2005-10-05 06:50 pm (UTC)*rushes back, flings self at computer, hugs it tight* aww, who am i kidding. i love you, dear computer, dear lj, dear flame-war. i'll never leave you again, i promise.
no subject
Date: 2005-10-05 07:11 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-10-05 07:13 pm (UTC)Re: Is there a point?
Date: 2005-10-05 07:38 pm (UTC)1.Of or relating to existence outside the natural world.
2.Attributed to a power that seems to violate or go beyond natural forces.
3.Of or relating to a deity.
4.Of or relating to the immediate exercise of divine power; miraculous.
5.Of or relating to the miraculous.
so tell me again why youre , yet claim to believe in God???
no subject
Date: 2005-10-07 09:56 am (UTC)Re: Is there a point?
Date: 2005-10-07 09:59 am (UTC)If you wanna split hairs, fine- what I should've said at the very beginning of that whole thing is that I'm "skeptical of all other supernatural things" besides God. Clear?
no subject
Date: 2005-10-07 02:03 pm (UTC)Good point. Well, I'll just call you "hon" too then...hon.
no subject
Date: 2005-10-10 12:36 pm (UTC)