(no subject)

[badstar]

When I was in PA, I made the mistake of getting into a discussion on religion with my mother. She's been saying for a while now that she is so proud of what I'm doing, even though she doesn't agree with it. But I could never get at what exactly she doesn't agree with, it just always seemed like she disagreed with whatever her idea of what I'm doing and what I believe is, as opposed to what I really do and believe.

I've told her on several occasions that I've no intention of trying to change her mind, however if she's going to disagree with me, I really would prefer that she disagree with what actually is, as opposed to whatever mal-conceived ideas she's got.

So we started getting into it and the first thing she said was that she doesn't agree with the idea of many gods because there is only one god. Okay, I can respect that. Her reason is rather insulting- that polytheism came about because ancient folks were too ignorant to grok the concept of a single god holding reign over everything.

But, ya know whatever.

I got a little irritated when she want on to say that every single major religion in the world has had some prophet who came along to tell people that there's only one god. Ummm....Buddhism? Hinduism?

*sigh* It would be so easy if she would just tell me I'm gonna die and burn in hell. But no...she doesn't believe that. She believes in reincarnation. She thinks that I'm attracted to the Greek gods because I had a past life in ancient Greece. But she thinks I have it all wrong, and that I have to keep "looking for the truth".

She says that she once asked to see the truth and is sorry that she did. Then she starts going on about how there's a war going on all around us at all time between angels and demons for people's souls, and how I needed to understand this, and to keep seeking the truth. (And by "truth", she meant what she was telling me.) she was also going on about how she knows it must be true because she could never make it up in her own mind. As if I would so easily make up my own expereinces...especially some of the more recent ones.

She also reminded me that she knows when she's telling someone the right thing because she gets chills (she used to say this a lot) I have a hard time taking that one seriously in the context of sitting outside in 30-degree weather for the last fifteen minutes with an open coat over a light shirt. I told her that I had chills too and could just as easily use that to say I was telling her the right thign too. Of course the response was "You know that's not the kind of chill I'm talking about."

It didn't really last very long, my stepfather came out to smoke (we were sitting outside) and I was NOT going to continue that discussion with Mike present because...it would have gotten REALLY ugly.

So...on one hand, I have to say that I find her angel/demon war for souls to be utterly ridiculous. At the same time, I know that I've had my share of plenty ridiculous-sounding experiences.

I don't believe in one single truth...and if there is one, I think that the odds of ANYONE actually having it right are practically nonexistent. I've said it a hundred times before...there's only one way to know that for sure, and I've no plans to do that anytime soon. She seemed to find it rather troublesome that I could be so convinced of my beliefs and still acknowledge that I could be wrong. I dunno what to tell you, I'm human, I'm imperfect. It's not logical, but...well, it makes sense to me.

I made no attempt to explain my own experience. I often have enough trouble reasonably speaking of things to people who do understand where I'm coming from. I wasn't going to waste my breath fumbling to explain the light of Apollo to someone who takes stumbling over words and the inability to immediately deliver just the right words as a sign of doubt or lack of knowledge and fumbling for words or not, I wouldn't even mention what I've experienced with Dionysus. I could see that going over well..."Oh yah, Mom so I had this dream that this god came along and got someone to tie me to a tree with grapevines, and then the god that I'm particularly devoted to shot me with an arrow. Oh and after that, the skin all over my arms and legs got all slived up...but it's ok because they said it was and that I would be better in the end."

Yaaaah. Like so many lead balloons. I wasn't even going to try. Oh well, I know where I've been. Not always entirely sure where I'm going, it seems to shift and morph from time to time. But I've no doubt I'm going the right way, this is the truth as I know it.

Comments

[mydruid.livejournal.com]

As one polytheist to another (and a mommy to boot) I understand some of what she says. Your mom and I are probably of a closer generation ( I am older of course). We were taught as children that it is a parent's duty to instill religious beliefs in our children, our religious beliefs. That as Christians, we can not, must not allow our children to "stray". Our souls are in danger if we do, because this is our primary duty as parents. If a Christian parents "accepts or agrees" with the child, we have failed and parents do not like to fail...My mother never really accepted my beliefs, and she had a very difficult time, trying to understand. On one hand she raised my to have a mind of my own, and to trust my mind and heart to lead me in the correct direction (with her guiding the way). The concept of not only not following her and my families religious beliefs, but to renounce Christianity as well boggles their minds. Where polytheists allow and even encourage the belief in different Gods, Christianity does not, in fact they expressly forbid it. No true Christian can accept this and even if they want to for their child's sake, they can't. They will have to answer for this when they stand before their God, so they continue to try any way they can, to convince us that we have to be wrong, because in their opinion, they can't be wrong, therefore we must be.

I am not agreeing with her, I am sympathizing with both of you. It is a lose-lose situation, and it is never going to change.

[fuego.livejournal.com]

Heh...this would make sense if my mother were Christan, which she's not. I actually thought that I had specifically stated that somewhere, but it seems I was wrong. she is some sort of monotheist, and seems to have a definite Abrahamic bent, but does not believe in Jesus as the savior of man.

[resident-geek.livejournal.com]

It's tough, and as mydruid said, really a lose-lose situation. My approach has been one of questioning the criticiser: what evidence supports your belief in a specific metaphysical arrangement? My own mom and I have gone similar rounds about it (though I can't say I've ever had a religious experience as the ones you describe), and she cannot actually answer the question. She just knows. Which is, to the critically thinking mind, useless for expressions of mutually held truth.

Socrates had it right. We don't know. But we should keep asking.

Right there with you...

[fuego.livejournal.com]

I understand the part about just knowing, where it comes from. I can't offer you any proof of my own experience, you can believe what I say, that it's actually happened...or you can nod, smile and mutter under your breath about how I must be delusional.

It's not wanting proof from her that's the problem- I don't want proof that she's right and I'm wrong, and I don't want to prove my own side or otherwise convince her to agree with me. My whole point was just that if she's going to disagree with me, I want her to disagree with what I actually believe, and not with what she thinks I believe.

[resident-geek.livejournal.com]

The second part is what I was getting at, albeit a little unclearly. Having conflicting accounts, where each believer is invested in his version of the truth, is a difficult thing to sort out. The reason for this is that no matter how fully you explain it, it is possible for the other person (your mother, in this case) to overlay your ideas with her own. In a sense, she has to want to abandon her own belief system (even for a brief period of time) in order to come closer to understanding yours. So even if you are able to lay out what you actually believe, she may not get to that point of understanding, because of her commitment to her own metaphysical worldview.

[apotimber.livejournal.com]

Hmm, your mom believes in reincarnation and is Christian? They don't jive with each other.

Even in Christianity, there is an interpretation that within the book of Genesis, when Yahweh tells Moses that "Thou shalt have no other gods before me" that it can be said that even He acknowledges that there are other "gods" but those who are his people, the Israelites and later the Christians, should worship none of them and only Him. Of course, the common interpretation is that those other gods being referred to are idols.

Then, there are those that believe the early gods were aliens. Oh, and the pyramids were landing pads for spaceships, and Stargates do exist. Yup yup.

[fuego.livejournal.com]

Hmm, your mom believes in reincarnation and is Christian? They don't jive with each other.

No...she's not Christian. She's...some sort of monotheist, but she is not Christian. Thought I explicitly stated that somewhere. Looks like I was wrong.

[unprotoize.livejournal.com]

Obviously this conversation with your mom was difficult and it highlighted the differences between you. As an outsider with no previous emotional relationship to your mom, I do actually see a great deal of similarity between you and what your mom are/do/believe. There sure are differences but really, you aren't too far apart. I think her saying she disagrees with what you believe in is her way of saying that she's fine with you believing in it and she herself does not believe in it. Which, really, if you think about it, is worlds away from her thinking you're wrong and are going to burn in hell.

I found that as i age, i am better able to detach from what my family/folk want me to do/believe and am simply able to see them as humans from my own human perspective. They're fumbling towards ecstasy in their own way, as am i.

Ummmm.does that make sense? Sorry if i'm rambling..... :) If nothing else, I commend you for being brave and talking with your mom about this stuff.

4am theology....

[fuego.livejournal.com]

That bit about getting the chills when she speaks the truth - is that coming from a Mormon background? I know they have something about feeling a "burning in the breast" when they hear something being an indicator how they can know it's true.

Nope. my mother comes from a Sicilian Super-Catholic family and I'm reasonably sure that she knows less about the Mormons than I do (And I know very little)

To me it sounds like an easy way to rely on emotions rather than fact. You know - she makes that point about angels and demons fighting over us (and to a certain extent I agree) but how can she be sure that the chill isn't a demon?

The question has crossed my mind, but i haven't had the desire to get into that one...

In this case though, like I said in the post, I chalk that particular chill up to the fact that it was cold out. So tempted to try sometime and see what happens if I tell her I'm getting a chill that tells me the exact opposite of what she says....yes, I'm bad.

Also that bit about her not being able to make this up... well where is she getting it then? Because reincarnation isn't Christian, and angels and demons aren't eastern (as far as I know) so it sounds to me like she's following her own personal idolatrous blend of beliefs as well.

Mmmmm...idolatrous blend, great for breakfast! I dunno. I know that she doesn't claim to be Christian and doesn't believe in Jesus Christ as the savior of mankind. She's hmmm...it seems the me that the best wording I can think of is "eclectic monotheist"...which makes my brain hurt to say that. I think a few eastern religions, or at least mythologies, may have something comparable to demons (Hinduism and some of the Kali and Durga myths are coming to mind, but I'm not sure how accurate my thoughts are...) but I don't think they're quite the same as demons in the Christian sense.